'Gambling Apocalypse Kaiji'

[sabrina.esbitt@gmail.com]

Hello,

has anyone in this group ever read the manga 'Gambling Apocalypse
Kaiji'? It looks like the same person who wrote and drew the Akagi
manga. It also seems to show many unusual variations of play which
I'd love to learn (the same author introduced the "clear tiles" in
Akagi). Unfortunately I don't read Japanese! If anyone has read this
or could explain some of the new rules (the only issue I've seen is
#2), that would be great.

On a related topic. There seems to be so much literature, animation,
video games etc.. in Japanese. I would love to see more of it in
English. Is there a company one could petition to try and get more?
I know it isn't popular here in the States but the manga "Hikaru no
Go" has been selling here and getting more kids into Go than ever
before. I'd love if the same thing could happen for Mahjong.

- David

[spambot@kintaro.ca]

Unfortunately, the chance of manga relating to Mahjong coming to
America seems low, considering the usual elements in play in Japanese
Modern Mahjong cartoons. While the game itself in no way requires
things like wagers to play, "Akagi" dealt with gambling beyond
desperation not only with money but with lives as well. "Legendary
Gambler Tetsuya" had to deal with massive amounts of cheating, for a
short while, there were videos on Youtube that were basically telling
people how cheating occurs and is done, like how to rig hands and all.
(Copyrighted material got yanked though). Especially with a name like
"Gambling Apocalypse Kaiji", the only way it will get here is if 4Kids
pulls out their editing team and turns it into a game of Crazy eights
with popcorn for wagers.

It's very entertaining but the ability to market it beyond a small
fanbase won't work especially well. The only kind of Mahjong comic or
show that could make it here is one that would have a kid between 10
and 16 "rise up magically" in skill with the occasional one episode
revolving around the fact that gambling exists and the protagonist "is
better than that". Add teenage drama into the mix. (I don't enjoy
moralizing shows, see the Mitani gambling in Hikaru no Go, but the
message still is correct that gambling is really not needed to have
fun.)

Your only luck in getting anime or manga here is by ordering from the
main companies producing, Takeshobo mainly for Mahjong. Whether they
ship abroad is another story.

In any case, the only way Mahjong can gain more acceptance, either for
entertainment distribution or in the public eye, is the growth and
creation of clubs open to all people of all origins in a *zero-wager*
atmosphere. One such club is Mahjong Montreal on the web at
http://mah-jong.dfdanse.com/acceuil/english/ , run by good people who
know how to make the game enjoyable. At least one member actually
posts here in RGM. I planned on starting a club myself with advice
from the people at Mahjong Montreal, but I'm experiencing a few
logistics hurdles. Somehow, it'll be alright.

[Benjamin Boas]

Hi David,

It's great to see there are more English fans of Kaiji and other Mah
Jong manga! I've been a fan for about a couple of years. I'm
currently finishing up college and am about to publish my senior
thesis on Japanese Mah Jong culture, so maybe I can be of some help.

Kaiji is indeed written by Nobuyuki Fukumoto, author of Akagi (and
Ten). None of his manga has been translated into English,
unfortunately, but Akagi was made into an anime last year and I think
it's been fansubbed. Kaiji is divided into three different
"episodes," the first dealing with a variety of gambling games
(including rock paper scissors) the second with pachinko, and the
third with Mah Jong, which is the one I think you have. Kaiji and the
rival boss are playing a special form of 2 player Mah Jong in which
each player takes half (or some amount) of the tiles and uses 13 to
make a "ready" hand. Each player then discards one tile each from his
pool until one player is able to win off the other's discarded tile.
As far as I know, this variant isn't actually played in reality,
although a 3 player version with similar rules is common.

I agree with you that its too bad there isnt more Japanese media in
English. The best thing you can do about it is to learn Japanese
yourself ;) While you're working on that, if you're interested
specifically in finding out more about Mah Jong manga, anime, and
other media, you might want to contact Ryan Morris at rmorris2001 at
hotmail dot com Ryan is an American heavily involved in the Mah Jong
World who's a very big fan of Kaiji. I hope you also read my thesis
when I finish it next month!

Benjamin Boas

On Mar 30, 6:20 pm, sabrina.esb...@gmail.com wrote:
> Hello,
>
> has anyone in this group ever read the manga 'Gambling Apocalypse
> Kaiji'? It looks like the same person who wrote and drew the Akagi
> manga. It also seems to show many unusual variations of play which
> I'd love to learn (the same author introduced the "clear tiles" in
> Akagi). Unfortunately I don't read Japanese! If anyone has read this
> or could explain some of the new rules (the only issue I've seen is
> #2), that would be great.
>
> On a related topic. There seems to be so much literature, animation,
> video games etc.. in Japanese. I would love to see more of it in
> English. Is there a company one could petition to try and get more?
> I know it isn't popular here in the States but the manga "Hikaru no
> Go" has been selling here and getting more kids into Go than ever
> before. I'd love if the same thing could happen for Mahjong.
>
> - David

[Dwillems]

Thank you so much for the comments. I'd love to read your thesis!!

- David


On Mar 31, 6:00 pm, "Benjamin Boas" <ben...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi David,
>
> It's great to see there are more English fans of Kaiji and other Mah
> Jong manga! I've been a fan for about a couple of years. I'm
> currently finishing up college and am about to publish my senior
> thesis on Japanese Mah Jong culture, so maybe I can be of some help.
>
> Kaiji is indeed written by Nobuyuki Fukumoto, author of Akagi (and
> Ten). None of his manga has been translated into English,
> unfortunately, but Akagi was made into an anime last year and I think
> it's been fansubbed. Kaiji is divided into three different
> "episodes," the first dealing with a variety of gambling games
> (including rock paper scissors) the second with pachinko, and the
> third with Mah Jong, which is the one I think you have. Kaiji and the
> rival boss are playing a special form of 2 player Mah Jong in which
> each player takes half (or some amount) of the tiles and uses 13 to
> make a "ready" hand. Each player then discards one tile each from his
> pool until one player is able to win off the other's discarded tile.
> As far as I know, this variant isn't actually played in reality,
> although a 3 player version with similar rules is common.
>
> I agree with you that its too bad there isnt more Japanese media in
> English. The best thing you can do about it is to learn Japanese
> yourself ;) While you're working on that, if you're interested
> specifically in finding out more about Mah Jong manga, anime, and
> other media, you might want to contact Ryan Morris at rmorris2001 at
> hotmail dot com Ryan is an American heavily involved in the Mah Jong
> World who's a very big fan of Kaiji. I hope you also read my thesis
> when I finish it next month!
>
> Benjamin Boas
>
> On Mar 30, 6:20 pm, sabrina.esb...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> > Hello,
>
> > has anyone in this group ever read the manga 'Gambling Apocalypse
> > Kaiji'? It looks like the same person who wrote and drew the Akagi
> > manga. It also seems to show many unusual variations of play which
> > I'd love to learn (the same author introduced the "clear tiles" in
> > Akagi). Unfortunately I don't read Japanese! If anyone has read this
> > or could explain some of the new rules (the only issue I've seen is
> > #2), that would be great.
>
> > On a related topic. There seems to be so much literature, animation,
> > video games etc.. in Japanese. I would love to see more of it in
> > English. Is there a company one could petition to try and get more?
> > I know it isn't popular here in the States but the manga "Hikaru no
> > Go" has been selling here and getting more kids into Go than ever
> > before. I'd love if the same thing could happen for Mahjong.
>
> > - David

[Tom Sloper]

sabrina.esbitt@gmail.com> wrote...
> On a related topic. There seems to be so much literature, animation,
> video games etc.. in Japanese. I would love to see more of it in
> English. Is there a company one could petition to try and get more?

Hello David ("Sabrina"???),
I doubt that "petitioning" will get you very far, but other than Tokyopop,
OTHER companies could be found (by you) by simply Googling "manga in
English" or "translated manga into English" or other strings you can come up
with yourself.

> I know it isn't popular here in the States but the manga "Hikaru no
> Go" has been selling here and getting more kids into Go than ever
> before. I'd love if the same thing could happen for Mahjong.

Wouldn't we all. It's necessary to get realistic here. Before any company
can spend its resources localizing a product for the American market, they
have to have a realistic expectation of finding a receptive audience willing
to pay for the product. In other words, mahjong has to become more popular
here before what you're hoping for can happen.

This year may be a turning point, since numerous organizations are trying
hard to help mahjong achieve the sort of popularity that poker has found of
late.

Tom

[Tom Sloper]

Anonymous person calling himself "spambot@kintaro.ca" wrote...

>> Unfortunately, the chance of manga relating to Mahjong coming to
>> America seems low...

Just so.

>> Your only luck in getting anime or manga here is by ordering from the
>> main companies producing, Takeshobo mainly for Mahjong. Whether they
>> ship abroad is another story.

The anonymous person seems fairly knowledgeable. Wonder why he refuses to
use a human name?

>> In any case, the only way Mahjong can gain more acceptance, either for
>> entertainment distribution or in the public eye, is the growth and
>> creation of clubs open to all people of all origins in a *zero-wager*
>> atmosphere.

I agree that money gambling is unnecessary for mahjong to be enjoyable. Too
bad we can never get together and play...

Tom

[Tom Sloper]

"Benjamin Boas" <benkun@gmail.com> wrote
>
> It's great to see there are more English fans of Kaiji and other Mah
> Jong manga!

Looking forward to meeting you in Copenhagen, Benjamin.
Tom

[Alan Kwan]

Tom Sloper wrote:

> This year may be a turning point, since numerous organizations are trying
> hard to help mahjong achieve the sort of popularity that poker has found of
> late.

In order to connect formal competitions to general popularity,
we certainly need a set of "tournament rules you can play at home". :)

--
"一套能被真æ*£æŽ¥å�—æˆ�ç‚ºåœ‹éš›æ¨™æº–çš„éº»é› €ç«*法，ä¸�å–®æ*¢è¦�é�©ç”¨æ–¼åœ‹éš›ç«¶æŠ€ï¹�ä¹Ÿå ¿…é*ˆ
è¦�é�©å�ˆæ–¼ä¸€èˆ¬å®¶åº*è€�樂，å›*ç‚ºéº»é›€æœ¬ä¾ †å°±æ‡‰è©²æ˜¯ä¸€å€‹äººäººå�¯äº«çš„智力競技é�Šæ ˆ²ã€‚"

- Alan Kwan / tarot@netvigator.com
Zung Jung mahjong official website: http://www.zj-mahjong.info/

[Joss Wright]

On Sat, 31 Mar 2007 11:12:17 -0700, spambot wrote:

> and 16 "rise up magically" in skill with the occasional one episode
> revolving around the fact that gambling exists and the protagonist "is
> better than that". Add teenage drama into the mix. (I don't enjoy
> moralizing shows, see the Mitani gambling in Hikaru no Go, but the
> message still is correct that gambling is really not needed to have
> fun.)

To be entirely fair, the Mitani sub-story in Hikaru no Go revolves around
the fact that Mitani is wrong to _cheat_, not wrong to gamble. Staking
something on the result of games, albeit not usually for money, is
relatively common in the series.

Joss

--
Joss Wright
Comp. Science Department http://www.pseudonymity.net/~joss
York University http://www.cs.york.ac.uk/~joss

[Dwillems]

On Apr 1, 12:52 am, "Tom Sloper" <tslo...@DONTsloperamaSPAMME.com>
wrote:

> Hello David ("Sabrina"???),

Oops, my girlfriend must have been logged into Gmail when I posted my
message, I'll have to double check when I start madly posting!


> I doubt that "petitioning" will get you very far, but other than Tokyopop,
> OTHER companies could be found (by you) by simply Googling "manga in
> English" or "translated manga into English" or other strings you can come up
> with yourself.

I know it's a rather unrealistic dream... sigh. I got 'The Great
Mahjong Book" recently, and it was nice to see the Japanese rules laid
out (very basically) for the first time in English. Do you think
there'd be a market for a more in depth Modern Japanese rulebook in
English? That might be a start at least. I'd like to write one, and
perhaps get people on this list to look it over and make sure the
rules (and all of the variations) are correct.

Anyway it's an idea.

[Tom Sloper]

"Dwillems" <DWillems@gmail.com> wrote
> I got 'The Great
> Mahjong Book" recently, and it was nice to see the Japanese rules laid
> out (very basically) for the first time in English.

I need to get a copy.

> Do you think
> there'd be a market for a more in depth Modern Japanese rulebook in
> English?

A market? Yes. But the size of that market? I couldn't say.
Tom

[Alan Kwan]

Tom Sloper wrote:

> "Dwillems" <DWillems@gmail.com> wrote
>
>>Do you think
>>there'd be a market for a more in depth Modern Japanese rulebook in
>>English?

Small. I can't really see Japanese rules propagating well outside Japan, for
these reasons:

1. Too complicated. They retain triplet-point counting, for very little
significance. And many prohibition rules, including "furiten" (sacred discard)
and others (and even many different variations of these prohobition rules within
Japan).

2. The Japanese rules are themselves disintegrating (declining) in Japan. The
game is supposed to be a game of skill around the faan-patterns, but in Japan
popular play (and even tournament play) is adopting more and more crazy
'luck-inflation' elements (ura-dora, red fives, more and more dora, ippatsu,
etc.), rendering the delicate (if it was indeed so) scoring system into total
chaos. If "pure" Japanese mahjong is losing popularity in Japan, how can it
gain (and retain) popularity outside?

--
"大牌之所以大，就是貴在於能æ�¶åœ¨å°�ç‰ Œä¹‹å‰�和牌。強åŠ*「起和ã€�è¦�定，
å°�牌ä¸�å‡†å’Œçš„è©±ï¼Œä¾¿èª°ä¹Ÿæ‡‚å¾—å’Œå¤§ç‰Œï¼ Œæ²’有甚麼值得稀罕的。
è¦�求大牌è¦�能æ�¶åœ¨å°�牌之å‰�æ‰�èƒ½å’Œï¼Œé€ ™æ‰�是真æ*£çš„技術挑戰。"
"The true challenge of skill lies where big hands have to beat small
hands in speed in order to win. With a Minimum Requirement rule, anybody
can make big hands with no impediment; they cease to be extraordinary."
- Alan Kwan / tarot@netvigator.com
Zung Jung mahjong official website: http://www.zj-mahjong.info/

[d_lau@my-deja.com]

On Apr 1, 9:39 pm, Alan Kwan <notme@nospam> wrote:
> If "pure" Japanese mahjong is losing popularity in Japan, how can it
> gain (and retain) popularity outside?

Well, let's not forget how the "Chinese Classical" game became so
popular in the western world. The Chinese game was changing in the
1920s in China, and yet one version was documented in English and it
became the dominant variant of the game in the western world; even
though that variant soon completely disappeared in China. But I don't
think we want to discuss that. :-)

[Nath Krismaratala]

> "Dwillems" <DWill...@gmail.com> asked:
>
>Do you think
>there'd be a market for a more in depth Modern Japanese rulebook in
>English?

Yes there are a lot of interest expressed among Western anime and
manga fans. But, since there is no book, the Japanese rules are no
well understood outside of Japan, therefore not a lot of (older)
Westerner players will petition for a publication. However, It could
change fast... if a good book is published. It's a vicious cycle : no
English rulebook -> no Western players -> no players -> no books.

On 2 avr, 00:39, Alan Kwan <notme@nospam> wrote:
> I can't really see Japanese rules propagating well outside Japan

It would be more sincere to say, since you try to promote your own
variant, you *wish* the Japanese rules won't make it outside of
Japan.


> 1. Too complicated. They retain triplet-point counting, for very little
> significance. And many prohibition rules, including "furiten" (sacred discard)
> and others (and even many different variations of these prohobition rules within
> Japan).

No, the rules, especially the one called "furiten", are stable and,
for the essentials, the same everywhere in Japan. Furiten is what
makes Japanese Mahjong so great. It introduces a higher level of
strategy not seen anywhere else. Less luck, better play. If it weren't
for the Furiten rule, I think I would have lost interest for Mahjong
long time ago. Without it, Mahjong is mainly a game of luck.

> 2. The Japanese rules are themselves disintegrating (declining) in Japan. The
> game is supposed to be a game of skill around the faan-patterns, but in Japan
> popular play (and even tournament play) is adopting more and more crazy
> 'luck-inflation' elements (ura-dora, red fives, more and more dora, ippatsu,
> etc.), rendering the delicate (if it was indeed so) scoring system into total
> chaos.

AH ah ah! Disintegration, decline, craziness and total chaos. It's
funny how far you are willing to go to discredit others to promote
your new business.

The diversity and level of sophistication of the Japanese Rules are
proof of the healthy vitality of the game. And, red fives, dora and
ippatsu are perfect examples of replacements of Flowers, which one can
only acquire purely by luck, by intelligent game mechanics that
promote careful, strategic game actions. And by the way, more dora
have not been introduced in the game for at least a few decades.

> If "pure" Japanese mahjong is losing popularity in Japan, how can it
> gain (and retain) popularity outside?

Riichi Ma-jan has never been more popular than now. Firstly, in Japan,
where more and more leagues and championships appear. But, especially
outside of Japan, thanks to the Internet, video games and anime like
Akagi. A completely new generation of Western players is growing fast
in number. For instance, less than five years ago, almost nobody knew
what "ipatstu" meant. Now, most of the young people that register in
our club, have a good knowledge of the Japanese rules, because they
play online, and have a basic understanding of the major tactics.

I understand the main competitor your Zung Jung Mahjong, the one you
possibly fear the most, is Japanese Mahjong, or simply that you
personally dislike that flavour of Mahjong, but it doesn't justify
derogatory remarks and untruths. It's not worthy of you.

[John (Z R) L]

Sorry I haven't read all of the above posts.

>has anyone in this group ever read the manga 'Gambling Apocalypse
>Kaiji'?

I haven't seen this Mj manga before. The only 3 Anime/Manga about
Japanese Mj I ever saw in person was "Akagi", "Tetsuya" (Jap Manga
vol. 1), and "Maajan Ou" (translated Chinese version vol. 7). Akagi
uses "fearful" logic and isn't supposed to be fully mathematical like
the other impersonator of him that died. "Tetsuya", I bought Vol. 1
in Kinokuniya in Malaysia in 2004, and I kinda liked it back then. I
understood the Mj bit and very little of the Japanese conversation (I
am learning JLPT 4 still) , but now I think "Tetsuya" is stupid
because he just cheats all the time with not much proper skill.

Apparently there is a real Japanese pro mj player called "Sakurai
Shoichi" who does Tsumi-Komi all the time and wins a lot with massive
hands though, but I don't dare to cheat with other people in real
life.
"Maajan Ou", I read Vol. 7 in Chinese (traditional), and it looks like
a bunch of businessmen talking and then playing Mj, I didn't
understand the plot because I didn't read the earlier volumes.

There is one manga which I want to see in the far future, called
"Gyuuwan Bura Jiko Chuushin Ha". I played the ROM of it (No. 1 & 2) on
the NES emulator and I thought it was amusing. But it looks like an
old series written in the 80's, so I'll never see it unless I actually
visit Japan.

I also wanted Super Real Mj Parts 5&6 to be emulated onto MAME
properly, but it never happened. It was a very popular strip mj arcade
series, and I wanted to play for the sake of it.

>I would love to see more of it in
>English. Is there a company one could petition to try and get more?
>I know it isn't popular here in the States but the manga "Hikaru no
>Go" has been selling here and getting more kids into Go than ever
>before. I'd love if the same thing could happen for Mahjong.

I don't think there'll be a company that properly translates the
Japanese Mj manga into English until true 4 Player Mj becomes popular/
well known in Western countries like Texas Holdem. Far more people
know what real Go is than real mj (instead of that damn cpu tile
matching solitaire). I only saw 2 references of Mj in "The Joy Luck
Club" and "Coccoon".

[Alan Kwan]

d_lau@my-deja.com wrote:

> On Apr 1, 9:39 pm, Alan Kwan <notme@nospam> wrote:
>
>>If "pure" Japanese mahjong is losing popularity in Japan, how can it
>>gain (and retain) popularity outside?
>
>
> Well, let's not forget how the "Chinese Classical" game became so
> popular in the western world. The Chinese game was changing in the
> 1920s in China, and yet one version was documented in English and it
> became the dominant variant of the game in the western world; even
> though that variant soon completely disappeared in China. But I don't
> think we want to discuss that. :-)

I believe that CC declined in the West almost as soon as it declined in China.
We are talking about "absolute" market size, not "relative" market share.

And in many localities, CC remained the only documented form of the game.
Today, with the prominance of the internet, a "book" on Japanese mahjong
is certainly unable to secure the same privilage. (One significant rival
is already lurking somewhere in this article ... :) )


--
"大牌之所以大，就是貴在於能æ�¶åœ¨å°�ç‰ Œä¹‹å‰�和牌。強åŠ*「起和ã€�è¦�定，
å°�牌ä¸�å‡†å’Œçš„è©±ï¼Œä¾¿èª°ä¹Ÿæ‡‚å¾—å’Œå¤§ç‰Œï¼ Œæ²’有甚麼值得稀罕的。
è¦�求大牌è¦�能æ�¶åœ¨å°�牌之å‰�æ‰�èƒ½å’Œï¼Œé€ ™æ‰�是真æ*£çš„技術挑戰。"
"The true challenge of skill lies where big hands have to beat small
hands in speed in order to win. With a Minimum Requirement rule, anybody
can make big hands with no impediment; they cease to be extraordinary."
- Alan Kwan / tarot@netvigator.com
Zung Jung mahjong official website: http://www.zj-mahjong.info/