Large creature blocking very many small creatures?

[Anonymous]

I have a situation where the players have animated a troll skeleton. It
is in front. It is size large, and in a 10' wide corridor. In front of
it are 15 size small centipede creatures. It basically appears as if
there is virtually no chance of any of the centipedes getting past the
skeleton due to its strength compared to theirs and not being able to
move through an occupied square etc. Can anyone see any way to get some
of the centipedes past the skeleton (other than killing it of course)?

[Anonymous]

I was just thinking, "hmmm what if they tried to trip it? Sure they'd
suffer AoO's, but theres 15 of them and only one skeleton with no
combat reflexes... So maybe one or more of them might succeed." Then I
thought, "hmmm but even if they do, and they knock it down, the other
ones still can't get past it because its not helpless, just prone." So
thats out.

:(

[Anonymous]

Perhaps if the first two centipedes attempt to overrun... Well with
only two attempts one will die from the AoO and the other will likely
just fail, so I guess thats out. The other 13 can't move into their
centipede buddies square so they have to wait patiently for their turns
to die.... hmmm still thinking....

[Anonymous]

Actually... its in a 10' wide x 10' tall corridor. The centipedes have
a climb speed listed. They could attack from the walls and ceiling
right? So in that case I could get 12 of them on the skeleton at once
as far as it looks to me... hmmm so... if 3/4 of them attempt to
overrun I bet maybe 5-6 might get past the big skelly. Anyone see a
problem w/that?

[Anonymous]

webhed wrote:
I have a situation where the players have animated a troll skeleton. It
is in front. It is size large, and in a 10' wide corridor. In front of
it are 15 size small centipede creatures. It basically appears as if
there is virtually no chance of any of the centipedes getting past the
skeleton due to its strength compared to theirs and not being able to
move through an occupied square etc. Can anyone see any way to get some
of the centipedes past the skeleton (other than killing it of course)?


They could squeeze through by following the normal squuezing rules, but
this will expose them to an AOO and will limit how many can get through
at once.

[Anonymous]

webhed wrote:
I was just thinking, "hmmm what if they tried to trip it? Sure they'd
suffer AoO's, but theres 15 of them and only one skeleton with no
combat reflexes... So maybe one or more of them might succeed." Then I
thought, "hmmm but even if they do, and they knock it down, the other
ones still can't get past it because its not helpless, just prone." So
thats out.

:(


There is a small chance for a bull rush, overrun or trip attack to work.
The troll's bonus is +10 and the centipedes are -7, so it's not
completely impossible (unlike grapple), but not real likely.

[Anonymous]

webhed wrote:
Perhaps if the first two centipedes attempt to overrun... Well with
only two attempts one will die from the AoO and the other will likely
just fail, so I guess thats out. The other 13 can't move into their
centipede buddies square so they have to wait patiently for their turns
to die.... hmmm still thinking....


They are too small to be able to bull rush,overrun, or trip, and they
cannot grapple (ignore my last post where I said it was possible but
unlikely).

[Anonymous]

webhed wrote:
Actually... its in a 10' wide x 10' tall corridor. The centipedes have
a climb speed listed. They could attack from the walls and ceiling
right? So in that case I could get 12 of them on the skeleton at once
as far as it looks to me... hmmm so... if 3/4 of them attempt to
overrun I bet maybe 5-6 might get past the big skelly. Anyone see a
problem w/that?


Well, no you can't. If they are Small centipedes and not Tiny, they can
only attack one per space, so that's eight total (two floor, two left
wall, two right wall, two ceiling). However, that does mean more of
them could squeeze past during one turn. Sure, some will die due to
AOOs but some will certainly get through.

[Anonymous]

On Oct 12, 1:36 am, Some Guy <noemailformetha>
wrote:
Well, no you can't. If they are Small centipedes and not Tiny, they can
only attack one per space, so that's eight total (two floor, two left
wall, two right wall, two ceiling). However, that does mean more of
them could squeeze past during one turn. Sure, some will die due to
AOOs but some will certainly get through.

To be more precise, the skeleton is standing in a hallway, but is
partially stepped out in front of a side hallway, exposing part of his
right flank. I looked at it again and you are right, it can't be 12,
but I think, if we do creative wall climbing, I can get 9 of them into
melee with it. Either way though, what do I have them do from there,
just attack? The goal is to get past the skeleton to the mushy
underbits (namely, the party!)

[Anonymous]

webhed wrote:
On Oct 12, 1:36 am, Some Guy <noemailformetha...@anyplace.invalid
wrote:

Well, no you can't. If they are Small centipedes and not Tiny, they can
only attack one per space, so that's eight total (two floor, two left
wall, two right wall, two ceiling). However, that does mean more of
them could squeeze past during one turn. Sure, some will die due to
AOOs but some will certainly get through.


To be more precise, the skeleton is standing in a hallway, but is
partially stepped out in front of a side hallway, exposing part of his
right flank. I looked at it again and you are right, it can't be 12,
but I think, if we do creative wall climbing, I can get 9 of them into
melee with it. Either way though, what do I have them do from there,
just attack? The goal is to get past the skeleton to the mushy
underbits (namely, the party!)


Well, that might change things a tad. I'm not sure I have a good visual
on this, so if you could provide one, that'd help. If there's enough
space, they may be able to climb past the skeleton.

[Anonymous]

On Oct 12, 1:18 am, Some Guy <noemailformetha>
wrote:
They could squeeze through by following the normal squuezing rules, but
this will expose them to an AOO and will limit how many can get through
at once.

But you can't squeeze through an occupied space, if its occupied by an
opponent, and the skeleton is animated by the party cleric, and is
there specifically to fend off things like annoying little centipedes.
The problem I am having is seeing one skeleton hold off an entire horde
of small creatures. Yes, technically I know its legitimate, but in my
imagination, it doesn't add up correctly. It seems like several of them
would just scurry past the thing, basically unmolested, while the
others crawl over the skeleton. Alas, theres no real rules for such a
maneuver it appears, so I guess they'll all just basically line up and
die.

[Anonymous]

webhed wrote:
On Oct 12, 1:18 am, Some Guy <noemailformetha...@anyplace.invalid
wrote:

They could squeeze through by following the normal squuezing rules, but
this will expose them to an AOO and will limit how many can get through
at once.


But you can't squeeze through an occupied space, if its occupied by an
opponent, and the skeleton is animated by the party cleric, and is
there specifically to fend off things like annoying little centipedes.

Sure you can, if you're not the same size or one size apart. You just
can't end your movement in an occupied space.

The problem I am having is seeing one skeleton hold off an entire horde
of small creatures. Yes, technically I know its legitimate, but in my
imagination, it doesn't add up correctly. It seems like several of them
would just scurry past the thing, basically unmolested, while the
others crawl over the skeleton. Alas, theres no real rules for such a
maneuver it appears, so I guess they'll all just basically line up and
die.


Creatures two or more sizes apart can occupy the same space, but only
half as many as normal. A squeezing creature can fit through a space
half as wide as its normal space, so one centipede can squeeze through
the skeleton's space at a time. The first one will eat an AOO and
likely die, but the rest can pass at half speed. Essentially, this
means four per round (one floor, one each wall, one ceiling).

[Anonymous]

webhed wrote:
I have a situation where the players have animated a troll skeleton. It
is in front. It is size large, and in a 10' wide corridor. In front of
it are 15 size small centipede creatures. It basically appears as if
there is virtually no chance of any of the centipedes getting past the
skeleton due to its strength compared to theirs and not being able to
move through an occupied square etc. Can anyone see any way to get some
of the centipedes past the skeleton (other than killing it of course)?

Are the centipedes directed? Centipedes are nomrally mindless, and are
just going to react, which means to attack any threat, i.e. the
skeleton.

- Justisaur

[Anonymous]

Some Guy wrote:
But you can't squeeze through an occupied space, if its occupied by an
opponent, and the skeleton is animated by the party cleric, and is
there specifically to fend off things like annoying little centipedes.

Sure you can, if you're not the same size or one size apart. You just
can't end your movement in an occupied space.

The SRD I have says:

"Square Occupied by Creature Three Sizes Larger or Smaller
Any creature can move through a square occupied by a creature three
size categories larger than it is."

So in this case, since the centipedes are small, and the skeleton is
large, thats only two sizes difference, so the skeleton can block 200
centipedes if it wants to.

Creatures two or more sizes apart can occupy the same space, but only
half as many as normal.

Unless the SRD I have is wrong, its three or more sizes difference.

A squeezing creature can fit through a space
half as wide as its normal space, so one centipede can squeeze through
the skeleton's space at a time. The first one will eat an AOO and
likely die, but the rest can pass at half speed. Essentially, this
means four per round (one floor, one each wall, one ceiling).

Good theory but unfortunately won't work assuming the SRD is correct.

[Anonymous]

Justisaur wrote:
Are the centipedes directed? Centipedes are nomrally mindless, and are
just going to react, which means to attack any threat, i.e. the
skeleton.

They are not directed, and are mindless. However, it just seems odd
that several of them can't swarm over the skeleton, while the others,
with no reasonable part of the skeleton to bite because its covered in
centipedes, might scurry on past the skeleton, either on the walls,
floor (between its legs) or even on the ceiling or something. Due to
the positioning, only 4 centipedes (of 15) can get to the skeleton at
once because only the two squares directly in front of it and one on
its right side are open (and now occupied by centipedes).

[Anonymous]

webhed wrote:
Justisaur wrote:
Are the centipedes directed? Centipedes are nomrally mindless, and are
just going to react, which means to attack any threat, i.e. the
skeleton.

They are not directed, and are mindless. However, it just seems odd
that several of them can't swarm over the skeleton, while the others,
with no reasonable part of the skeleton to bite because its covered in
centipedes, might scurry on past the skeleton, either on the walls,
floor (between its legs) or even on the ceiling or something. Due to
the positioning, only 4 centipedes (of 15) can get to the skeleton at
once because only the two squares directly in front of it and one on
its right side are open (and now occupied by centipedes).

I suppose it all depends on your interpretation of square...

Is a square a cube, or is it a square on a surface. If the former they
can pass him, if the latter they can't.

And lastly if it makes sense you can rule 0 it, there's no need to
stick dogmatically to the rules if they don't make sense for a
particular situation. You can always bring it up with the players to
come to an agreement beforehand.

- Justisaur

[Anonymous]

Justisaur wrote:
webhed wrote:

Justisaur wrote:

Are the centipedes directed? Centipedes are nomrally mindless, and are
just going to react, which means to attack any threat, i.e. the
skeleton.

They are not directed, and are mindless. However, it just seems odd
that several of them can't swarm over the skeleton, while the others,
with no reasonable part of the skeleton to bite because its covered in
centipedes, might scurry on past the skeleton, either on the walls,
floor (between its legs) or even on the ceiling or something. Due to
the positioning, only 4 centipedes (of 15) can get to the skeleton at
once because only the two squares directly in front of it and one on
its right side are open (and now occupied by centipedes).


I suppose it all depends on your interpretation of square...

Is a square a cube, or is it a square on a surface. If the former they
can pass him, if the latter they can't.

And lastly if it makes sense you can rule 0 it, there's no need to
stick dogmatically to the rules if they don't make sense for a
particular situation. You can always bring it up with the players to
come to an agreement beforehand.

I don't recall it ever being said how high the ceiling is. If its more
than 10', the centepedes could possibly pass by unblocked on the ceiling
(still taking AoOs to some).

[Anonymous]

webhed wrote:
I have a situation where the players have animated a troll skeleton. It
is in front. It is size large, and in a 10' wide corridor. In front of
it are 15 size small centipede creatures. It basically appears as if
there is virtually no chance of any of the centipedes getting past the
skeleton due to its strength compared to theirs and not being able to
move through an occupied square etc. Can anyone see any way to get some
of the centipedes past the skeleton (other than killing it of course)?

They should run away from the "not food" that is hurting them,
hiding up on a suitably high roof in a shadowy corner. Once the
dangerous "not food" is no longer between them and the "food", they can
rush down and try for the squishy things.

Their poison's pathetic, but a bit of "swarm the peice of food
that's on its own, then run away and follow it for later" might still be
a worthy tatic.

--
tussock

Aspie at work, sorry in advance.

[Anonymous]

webhed wrote:
I have a situation where the players have animated a troll skeleton. It
is in front. It is size large, and in a 10' wide corridor. In front of
it are 15 size small centipede creatures. It basically appears as if
there is virtually no chance of any of the centipedes getting past the
skeleton due to its strength compared to theirs and not being able to
move through an occupied square etc. Can anyone see any way to get some
of the centipedes past the skeleton (other than killing it of course)?

Curiously, if you just draw the squares bigger and pretend the troll is
medium and the centipedes are Tiny, you could use the Swarm rules and
everything is a little simpler. This isn't always a smart move but the
rules sometimes work a little better if you can refocus everything to
a scale where one of the characters is Medium size.

Mark

[Anonymous]

ringofw@hotmail.com wrote:
webhed wrote:
I have a situation where the players have animated a troll skeleton. It
is in front. It is size large, and in a 10' wide corridor. In front of
it are 15 size small centipede creatures.
...
Curiously, if you just draw the squares bigger and pretend the troll is
medium and the centipedes are Tiny, you could use the Swarm rules and
everything is a little simpler.

There's not enough for a swarm. Otherwise, sure, and there's even
rules for mobs of Small to Large size critters in DMG II (or various 3rd
party mass combat systems that do similar in a more generic fashion).

--
tussock

Aspie at work, sorry in advance.

[Anonymous]

Some Guy wrote:
webhed wrote:

B. If your players whine about why the centipedes didn't attack the
skeleton, explain that they don't see it as food and so have no idea
that they should attack it. They want MEAT, which they smell on the
players and which the skeleton unfortunateley lacks.

Good reason to have zombies instead. PCs usually don't like to use
zombies though, too smelly and gross, not to mention slow.

- Justisaur

[Anonymous]

This is the key sentence I missed in the SRD:

"A creature can squeeze past an opponent while moving but it can't end
its movement in an occupied square."

I was under the impression the squeeze rules were purely for creatures
attempting to move through restricted areas, like a narrow passage etc
and that creatures were expressly prohibited from moving through an
occupied area. I see now that that is false.

Excellent. So then it is clear that the centipedes CAN get by the
skeleton, even if at least one will die from an AoO, AND its easily
enough explained due to them not sensing anything of value to eat on
the skeleton.

[Anonymous]

Justisaur wrote:
Some Guy wrote:

webhed wrote:


B. If your players whine about why the centipedes didn't attack the
skeleton, explain that they don't see it as food and so have no idea
that they should attack it. They want MEAT, which they smell on the
players and which the skeleton unfortunateley lacks.


Good reason to have zombies instead. PCs usually don't like to use
zombies though, too smelly and gross, not to mention slow.

Yes, but at least zombies can fly. Well, sometimes, anyway, as my
players are finding out.

[Anonymous]

webhed wrote:
This is the key sentence I missed in the SRD:

"A creature can squeeze past an opponent while moving but it can't end
its movement in an occupied square."

I was under the impression the squeeze rules were purely for creatures
attempting to move through restricted areas, like a narrow passage etc
and that creatures were expressly prohibited from moving through an
occupied area. I see now that that is false.

Excellent. So then it is clear that the centipedes CAN get by the
skeleton, even if at least one will die from an AoO, AND its easily
enough explained due to them not sensing anything of value to eat on
the skeleton.


Shazam!