Mixed up 2C auction

[mauer@netzero.net]

Matchpoints, favorable vulnerability

I dealt, holding: AKQ94, AQJ87, Q, K9
Partner held: J652, K9, 943, JT53

Our bidding (no interference):
2C - 2D (waiting, we give suit positives only with a good suit)
2S - 3S
4NT - 5D (0 or 3 keycards)
5S (end)

This went down one (Club ruff)

I expected more from the raise to 3S. Partner had the alternatives,
it seemed to me, of a jump raise to 4S (good trump, little else)
and a double negative of 3C, then Spade raise.

Partner insisted that a double negative 3C suggests a misfit, and
that a jump to 4S is the double negative with Spade support.
He further suggested that I should have bid 4H over his 3S.
This would have denied a minor suit Ace, and he could have signed
off at 4S. Of course, I still would have been expecting a better hand!

Obviously, we haven't discussed these auctions before tonight.

What do you think? What structure (not too complex, please) works
best? What would you expect a sound partner to play, without
discussion?

[Jameson Cole]

<mauer@netzero.net> wrote in message
news:1170388606.462648.120870@v45g2000cwv.googlegr oups.com...
> Matchpoints, favorable vulnerability
>
> I dealt, holding: AKQ94, AQJ87, Q, K9
> Partner held: J652, K9, 943, JT53
>
> Our bidding (no interference):
> 2C - 2D (waiting, we give suit positives only with a good suit)
> 2S - 3S
> 4NT - 5D (0 or 3 keycards)
> 5S (end)
>
> This went down one (Club ruff)
>
> I expected more from the raise to 3S. Partner had the alternatives,
> it seemed to me, of a jump raise to 4S (good trump, little else)
> and a double negative of 3C, then Spade raise.
>
> Partner insisted that a double negative 3C suggests a misfit, and
> that a jump to 4S is the double negative with Spade support.
> He further suggested that I should have bid 4H over his 3S.
> This would have denied a minor suit Ace, and he could have signed
> off at 4S. Of course, I still would have been expecting a better hand!
>
> Obviously, we haven't discussed these auctions before tonight.
>
> What do you think? What structure (not too complex, please) works
> best? What would you expect a sound partner to play, without
> discussion?
>

You could play Serious 3NT (a Meckwell invention, that you can read about on
the internet). Suggested auction:
2C 2D
2S 3S
3NT 4H
4S pass
where 3NT is forcing, showing serious slam interest;
4H is Italian style cuebids, showing A, K, singleton or void and more
importantly denying a minor suit control.
and 4S is signoff

--
Cheers, Jameson Cole

[Bud H]

<mauer@netzero.net> wrote in message
news:1170388606.462648.120870@v45g2000cwv.googlegr oups.com...
> Matchpoints, favorable vulnerability
>
> I dealt, holding: AKQ94, AQJ87, Q, K9
> Partner held: J652, K9, 943, JT53
>
> Our bidding (no interference):
> 2C - 2D (waiting, we give suit positives only with a good suit)
> 2S - 3S
> 4NT - 5D (0 or 3 keycards)
> 5S (end)
>
> This went down one (Club ruff)
>
> I expected more from the raise to 3S. Partner had the alternatives,
> it seemed to me, of a jump raise to 4S (good trump, little else)
> and a double negative of 3C, then Spade raise.
>
> Partner insisted that a double negative 3C suggests a misfit, and
> that a jump to 4S is the double negative with Spade support.
> He further suggested that I should have bid 4H over his 3S.
> This would have denied a minor suit Ace, and he could have signed
> off at 4S. Of course, I still would have been expecting a better hand!
>
> Obviously, we haven't discussed these auctions before tonight.
>
> What do you think? What structure (not too complex, please) works
> best? What would you expect a sound partner to play, without
> discussion?
>


A double negative, followed by 4S bid, would show a very bad hand with spade
support, e.g., Jxxx Jx 9xx J10xx.

I would have jumped to 4S over 2S. I'd rather have better trump for that,
but other options appear worse.

Bud H

[henrysun909@yahoo.com]

On Feb 1, 7:56 pm, "m...@netzero.net" <m...@netzero.net> wrote:
> Matchpoints, favorable vulnerability
>
> I dealt, holding: AKQ94, AQJ87, Q, K9
> Partner held: J652, K9, 943, JT53
>
> Our bidding (no interference):
> 2C - 2D (waiting, we give suit positives only with a good suit)
> 2S - 3S
> 4NT - 5D (0 or 3 keycards)
> 5S (end)
>
> This went down one (Club ruff)
>
> I expected more from the raise to 3S. Partner had the alternatives,
> it seemed to me, of a jump raise to 4S (good trump, little else)
> and a double negative of 3C, then Spade raise.
>
> Partner insisted that a double negative 3C suggests a misfit, and
> that a jump to 4S is the double negative with Spade support.
> He further suggested that I should have bid 4H over his 3S.
> This would have denied a minor suit Ace, and he could have signed
> off at 4S. Of course, I still would have been expecting a better hand!
>
> Obviously, we haven't discussed these auctions before tonight.
>
> What do you think? What structure (not too complex, please) works
> best? What would you expect a sound partner to play, without
> discussion?

As far as I can tell, here is the standard structure after 2C-2D-2M:

4M = good trumps, no 1st or 2nd round control in any side suit.
Typical hand =
QTxx; xx; QJxx; xxx Since opener knows that responder has no 1st
round control, it follows that he must have at least 3 to explore for
slam. New suits are commonly used as asking bids (asking for 3rd
round control) and would be appropriate with a hand like

AKQxx
AKJxx
AKx
VOID

Where 3rd round control in hearts and diamonds is enough for a grand
slam.

3M = raise unsuited to the picture jump to 4M and too good for the
double negative rebid of 3C (which does not deny support for opener's
major). Will normally have at least 1 first or second round control.
In my opinion, responder's actual hand is fine for this rebid.

3C = second negative, usually 0-3-ish HCPs (hence no A, no K, and no
QQ). Could conceal 3 card support if the hand is unsuited to the jump
to 4M. A typical hand with support might be Jxx; Qxx; xxx; xxxx.

By my lights, responder bid his hand just right and opener overbid
(which is pretty common amongst 2C holders. It is easy to get excited
about a big hand with support opposite).

Henrysun909

[Kieran Dyke]

<mauer@netzero.net> wrote in message
news:1170388606.462648.120870@v45g2000cwv.googlegr oups.com...
> Matchpoints, favorable vulnerability
>
> I dealt, holding: AKQ94, AQJ87, Q, K9
> Partner held: J652, K9, 943, JT53
>
> Our bidding (no interference):
> 2C - 2D (waiting, we give suit positives only with a good suit)
> 2S - 3S
> 4NT - 5D (0 or 3 keycards)
> 5S (end)
>
> This went down one (Club ruff)
>
> I expected more from the raise to 3S. Partner had the alternatives,
> it seemed to me, of a jump raise to 4S (good trump, little else)
> and a double negative of 3C, then Spade raise.
>
> Partner insisted that a double negative 3C suggests a misfit, and
> that a jump to 4S is the double negative with Spade support.
> He further suggested that I should have bid 4H over his 3S.
> This would have denied a minor suit Ace, and he could have signed
> off at 4S. Of course, I still would have been expecting a better hand!
>
> Obviously, we haven't discussed these auctions before tonight.
>
> What do you think? What structure (not too complex, please) works
> best? What would you expect a sound partner to play, without
> discussion?
>

Well, now you're reaping what you've sown with your foolish responding
arrangements. (It costs little and has huge benefits to make 2D a real
negative, and switch the positives around - maybe 2NT=spades, 2S=general
positive with no good suit.) 4S on the second round should be a specific
hand - four trumps, no first or second round control. A "waiting" 3NT bid
over 3S would catch a 4H cue and now you know of two missing aces, or if you
only cue 1sts as opener, a 4H cue will reveal two missing bullets to
responder.

Tiggrr

[Hans Georg Schaathun]

On 1 Feb 2007 19:56:46 -0800, mauer@netzero.net
<mauer@netzero.net> wrote:
: Matchpoints, favorable vulnerability
:
: I dealt, holding: AKQ94, AQJ87, Q, K9
: Partner held: J652, K9, 943, JT53
: (...)
: What do you think? What structure (not too complex, please) works
: best? What would you expect a sound partner to play, without
: discussion?

A very simple one
2C¹ 2D
2S 3S²
4C³ 4H³
4S*

¹ Well, I would have opened 1S :-)
² Support; promises a control bid (cuebid)
³ Control,
* If responder has the CA too, he might continue.

This is the typical novice (just beyond the chapter on control bids)
approach in Norway, and probably also he approach of relatively advanced
players. Of course, if your first chapter on control bids is about
stone-age, ace first control bids, this simple approach might not be
so simple after all :-)

--
:-- Hans Georg http://www.ii.uib.no/~georg/

`This Universe never did make sense; I suspect that it was built
on government contract.' (Heinlein)

[Yury]

<mauer@netzero.net> wrote in message
news:1170388606.462648.120870@v45g2000cwv.googlegr oups.com...
> Matchpoints, favorable vulnerability
>
> I dealt, holding: AKQ94, AQJ87, Q, K9
> Partner held: J652, K9, 943, JT53
>
> Our bidding (no interference):
> 2C - 2D (waiting, we give suit positives only with a good suit)
> 2S - 3S
> 4NT - 5D (0 or 3 keycards)
> 5S (end)
>
> This went down one (Club ruff)
>
> I expected more from the raise to 3S. Partner had the alternatives,
> it seemed to me, of a jump raise to 4S (good trump, little else)
> and a double negative of 3C, then Spade raise.
>
> Partner insisted that a double negative 3C suggests a misfit, and
> that a jump to 4S is the double negative with Spade support.
> He further suggested that I should have bid 4H over his 3S.
> This would have denied a minor suit Ace, and he could have signed
> off at 4S.

He's absolutely right.

>Of course, I still would have been expecting a better hand!
>
> Obviously, we haven't discussed these auctions before tonight.
>
> What do you think? What structure (not too complex, please) works
> best? What would you expect a sound partner to play, without
> discussion?

He has nornal hand, king better than 4S.
Why 3S is stronger than 4S ? Because you need room for cue-bidding. If you
don't know nothing except Blackwood, try and read some books.

[thissteve@yahoo.com]

On Feb 2, 9:15 am, "Yury" <ukr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> If you
> don't know nothing except Blackwood, try and read some books

But this hand looks well-suited for blackwood. Either ace locks in
the slam. If this hand should use cuebids, then blackwood is
worthless.

[Jameson Cole]

<mauer@netzero.net> wrote in message
news:1170388606.462648.120870@v45g2000cwv.googlegr oups.com...
> Matchpoints, favorable vulnerability
>
> I dealt, holding: AKQ94, AQJ87, Q, K9
> Partner held: J652, K9, 943, JT53
>
> Our bidding (no interference):
> 2C - 2D (waiting, we give suit positives only with a good suit)
> 2S - 3S
> 4NT - 5D (0 or 3 keycards)
> 5S (end)
>
> This went down one (Club ruff)
>
> I expected more from the raise to 3S. Partner had the alternatives,
> it seemed to me, of a jump raise to 4S (good trump, little else)
> and a double negative of 3C, then Spade raise.
>
> Partner insisted that a double negative 3C suggests a misfit, and
> that a jump to 4S is the double negative with Spade support.
> He further suggested that I should have bid 4H over his 3S.
> This would have denied a minor suit Ace, and he could have signed
> off at 4S. Of course, I still would have been expecting a better hand!
>
> Obviously, we haven't discussed these auctions before tonight.
>
> What do you think? What structure (not too complex, please) works
> best? What would you expect a sound partner to play, without
> discussion?
>

I don't like the jump to 4S if you have a card or two that might make all
the difference between game or slam (6 or 7). With the actual hands,
responder doesn't know if the HK is key to slam. Even a random queen might
be the key, so the last thing responder should do is leap to game which
preempts any attempt by partner to explore slam, except at the dangerous 5
level. Better if the 4S bid shows good trumps, NOTHING else. E.g. Jxxx xx
xx Q10xxx could produce slam opposite a minimum 2C opener. Give partner a
chance to find out at a safe level.
--
Cheers, Jameson Cole

[Hans Georg Schaathun]

On 2 Feb 2007 08:18:12 -0800, thissteve@yahoo.com
<thissteve@yahoo.com> wrote:
: On Feb 2, 9:15 am, "Yury" <ukr...@gmail.com> wrote:
: > If you
: > don't know nothing except Blackwood, try and read some books
:
: But this hand looks well-suited for blackwood. Either ace locks in
: the slam.

Does it?
Do you want to play 6S opposite jxxx x Axxx jxxx?

: If this hand should use cuebids, then blackwood is
: worthless.

If this hand should not use cuebids, you should use 3N for blackwood.
There is nothing to be gained by skipping the 4-level just to
use blackwood ASAP. You blackwood later.

--
:-- Hans Georg http://www.ii.uib.no/~georg/

`This Universe never did make sense; I suspect that it was built
on government contract.' (Heinlein)

[KWSchneider]

On 1 Feb 2007 19:56:46 -0800, "mauer@netzero.net" <mauer@netzero.net>
wrote:

>Matchpoints, favorable vulnerability
>
>I dealt, holding: AKQ94, AQJ87, Q, K9
>Partner held: J652, K9, 943, JT53
>
>Our bidding (no interference):
>2C - 2D (waiting, we give suit positives only with a good suit)
>2S - 3S
>4NT - 5D (0 or 3 keycards)
>5S (end)
>
>This went down one (Club ruff)
>
>I expected more from the raise to 3S. Partner had the alternatives,
>it seemed to me, of a jump raise to 4S (good trump, little else)
>and a double negative of 3C, then Spade raise.
>
>Partner insisted that a double negative 3C suggests a misfit, and
>that a jump to 4S is the double negative with Spade support.
>He further suggested that I should have bid 4H over his 3S.
>This would have denied a minor suit Ace, and he could have signed
>off at 4S. Of course, I still would have been expecting a better hand!
>
>Obviously, we haven't discussed these auctions before tonight.
>
>What do you think? What structure (not too complex, please) works
>best? What would you expect a sound partner to play, without
>discussion?

Although this is ostensibly a 3-loser hand, I'm not convinced that
this is a 2C opener - especially in view of the strong 2-suited nature
of the hand and the useless DQ

Assuming 2/1, I would have opened this with 1S and jump shifted to
3hearts after the expected 1N response or to 4D after a 2S response.


KWSchneider
NH, USA

[Nick France]

On Feb 1, 10:56 pm, "m...@netzero.net" <m...@netzero.net> wrote:
> Matchpoints, favorable vulnerability
>
> I dealt, holding: AKQ94, AQJ87, Q, K9
> Partner held: J652, K9, 943, JT53
>
> Our bidding (no interference):
> 2C - 2D (waiting, we give suit positives only with a good suit)
> 2S - 3S
> 4NT - 5D (0 or 3 keycards)
> 5S (end)
>
> This went down one (Club ruff)
>
> I expected more from the raise to 3S. Partner had the alternatives,
> it seemed to me, of a jump raise to 4S (good trump, little else)
> and a double negative of 3C, then Spade raise.
>
> Partner insisted that a double negative 3C suggests a misfit, and
> that a jump to 4S is the double negative with Spade support.
> He further suggested that I should have bid 4H over his 3S.
> This would have denied a minor suit Ace, and he could have signed
> off at 4S. Of course, I still would have been expecting a better hand!
>
> Obviously, we haven't discussed these auctions before tonight.
>
> What do you think? What structure (not too complex, please) works
> best? What would you expect a sound partner to play, without
> discussion?

Partner had his bids you didn't have yours. Typical overbidding by
strong hand. Having openned 2C I would now bid 4H over 3S. This
would deny 1st round control in both minors and partner can sign off
in 4S.

I have the following responses after 2C-2D; 2S

4S - Weakest response with support, I have nothing of value to show

3S - Stronger response with support as I have something to show. Here
the something to show is the King of hearts

3C- double negative and the way I play it denies support

I would make one more comment, while you have a nice hand it is a 2
suitor and I dislike opening 2C with that type of hand and I would
have openned 1S with your hand.

Nick France

[Nick France]

On Feb 2, 3:22 am, "Kieran Dyke" <tig...@idx.com.au> wrote:
> <m...@netzero.net> wrote in message
>
> news:1170388606.462648.120870@v45g2000cwv.googlegr oups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > Matchpoints, favorable vulnerability
>
> > I dealt, holding: AKQ94, AQJ87, Q, K9
> > Partner held: J652, K9, 943, JT53
>
> > Our bidding (no interference):
> > 2C - 2D (waiting, we give suit positives only with a good suit)
> > 2S - 3S
> > 4NT - 5D (0 or 3 keycards)
> > 5S (end)
>
> > This went down one (Club ruff)
>
> > I expected more from the raise to 3S. Partner had the alternatives,
> > it seemed to me, of a jump raise to 4S (good trump, little else)
> > and a double negative of 3C, then Spade raise.
>
> > Partner insisted that a double negative 3C suggests a misfit, and
> > that a jump to 4S is the double negative with Spade support.
> > He further suggested that I should have bid 4H over his 3S.
> > This would have denied a minor suit Ace, and he could have signed
> > off at 4S. Of course, I still would have been expecting a better hand!
>
> > Obviously, we haven't discussed these auctions before tonight.
>
> > What do you think? What structure (not too complex, please) works
> > best? What would you expect a sound partner to play, without
> > discussion?
>
> Well, now you're reaping what you've sown with your foolish responding
> arrangements. (It costs little and has huge benefits to make 2D a real
> negative, and switch the positives around - maybe 2NT=spades, 2S=general
> positive with no good suit.) 4S on the second round should be a specific
> hand - four trumps, no first or second round control. A "waiting" 3NT bid
> over 3S would catch a 4H cue and now you know of two missing aces, or if you
> only cue 1sts as opener, a 4H cue will reveal two missing bullets to
> responder.
>
> Tiggrr- Hide quoted text -
>

I really don't see where the 2D waiting bid had anything to do with
the disaster. The opener overbid his strong hand and would have the
same disaster with a double negative as he would have bid 4NT over
partner's raise just as he did in the example.

Nick France

[thissteve@yahoo.com]

On Feb 2, 10:50 am, Hans Georg Schaathun <g...@ii.uib.no> wrote:
> On 2 Feb 2007 08:18:12 -0800, thisst...@yahoo.com <thisst...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> : But this hand looks well-suited for blackwood. Either ace locks in
> : the slam.
>
> Does it?

It does if partner has the points for slam. He doesn't, which is the
problem with this bidding sequence. Blackwood is not the problem.

> There is nothing to be gained by skipping the 4-level just to
> use blackwood ASAP. You blackwood later.

You already have second-round control in everything. What's a cuebid
going to tell you?

[Adam Beneschan]

On Feb 1, 7:56 pm, "m...@netzero.net" <m...@netzero.net> wrote:
> Matchpoints, favorable vulnerability
>
> I dealt, holding: AKQ94, AQJ87, Q, K9
> Partner held: J652, K9, 943, JT53
>
> Our bidding (no interference):
> 2C - 2D (waiting, we give suit positives only with a good suit)
> 2S - 3S
> 4NT - 5D (0 or 3 keycards)
> 5S (end)
>
> This went down one (Club ruff)
>
> I expected more from the raise to 3S.

He has four-card trump support *and* a king on the side. Looks like a
great hand opposite a 2C opener. He could have a lot worse. On the
other hand, I don't think you have much to spare for your 2C opener.
I'm one of those people who don't like opening 2C with a two-suiter
(although with a very good major 2-suiter I might---change a low heart
to the HK). But even if I didn't object to opening 2C on such hands,
I wouldn't consider this to be more than a minimum 2C opener, if it's
a 2C opener at all. So blasting into 4NT was rather rich. How would
you have looked if partner's king were in diamonds instead of hearts?
And despite your overbidding, you got to a contract that has decent
play and went down because you were unlucky. So please don't try to
pin the blame for this one on your poor partner.

(Apologies if this is a duplicate post. Google Groups is acting up.
Again.)

-- Adam

[Hans Georg Schaathun]

On 2 Feb 2007 10:58:01 -0800, thissteve@yahoo.com
<thissteve@yahoo.com> wrote:
: On Feb 2, 10:50 am, Hans Georg Schaathun <g...@ii.uib.no> wrote:
: > On 2 Feb 2007 08:18:12 -0800, thisst...@yahoo.com <thisst...@yahoo.com> wrote:
: > : But this hand looks well-suited for blackwood. Either ace locks in
: > : the slam.
: >
: > Does it?
:
: It does if partner has the points for slam. He doesn't, which is the
: problem with this bidding sequence. Blackwood is not the problem.

Partner has promised a king and a fit, and you jump to blackwood
with 3 losers!? Blackwood would not have been a problem if opener
had the points for slam.

: > There is nothing to be gained by skipping the 4-level just to
: > use blackwood ASAP. You blackwood later.
:
: You already have second-round control in everything. What's a cuebid
: going to tell you?

Probably not a lot, but it might be slightly more encouraging to
partner than a straight 4S which is the alternative.
Partner can always bid 4N if he has two controls.


--
:-- Hans Georg http://www.ii.uib.no/~georg/

`This Universe never did make sense; I suspect that it was built
on government contract.' (Heinlein)

[Travis Crump]

Nick France wrote:
> On Feb 2, 3:22 am, "Kieran Dyke" <tig...@idx.com.au> wrote:
>> <m...@netzero.net> wrote in message
>>
>> news:1170388606.462648.120870@v45g2000cwv.googlegr oups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> Matchpoints, favorable vulnerability
>>> I dealt, holding: AKQ94, AQJ87, Q, K9
>>> Partner held: J652, K9, 943, JT53
>>> Our bidding (no interference):
>>> 2C - 2D (waiting, we give suit positives only with a good suit)
>>> 2S - 3S
>>> 4NT - 5D (0 or 3 keycards)
>>> 5S (end)
>>> This went down one (Club ruff)
>>> I expected more from the raise to 3S. Partner had the alternatives,
>>> it seemed to me, of a jump raise to 4S (good trump, little else)
>>> and a double negative of 3C, then Spade raise.
>>> Partner insisted that a double negative 3C suggests a misfit, and
>>> that a jump to 4S is the double negative with Spade support.
>>> He further suggested that I should have bid 4H over his 3S.
>>> This would have denied a minor suit Ace, and he could have signed
>>> off at 4S. Of course, I still would have been expecting a better hand!
>>> Obviously, we haven't discussed these auctions before tonight.
>>> What do you think? What structure (not too complex, please) works
>>> best? What would you expect a sound partner to play, without
>>> discussion?
>> Well, now you're reaping what you've sown with your foolish responding
>> arrangements. (It costs little and has huge benefits to make 2D a real
>> negative, and switch the positives around - maybe 2NT=spades, 2S=general
>> positive with no good suit.) 4S on the second round should be a specific
>> hand - four trumps, no first or second round control. A "waiting" 3NT bid
>> over 3S would catch a 4H cue and now you know of two missing aces, or if you
>> only cue 1sts as opener, a 4H cue will reveal two missing bullets to
>> responder.
>>
>> Tiggrr- Hide quoted text -
>>
>
> I really don't see where the 2D waiting bid had anything to do with
> the disaster. The opener overbid his strong hand and would have the
> same disaster with a double negative as he would have bid 4NT over
> partner's raise just as he did in the example.
>
> Nick France
>
>

I think the problem is that 2D waiting means that 2C-2D; 2S-3S now has a
range of 4-10+. Does a cue bid by opener ask partner to cooperate with
a 4 count, or is it just in case responder has a 10 count? If opener
cue bids 4C and his partner cues 4H is opener really going to give
up[responder is then supposed to bid 5C with the AC, I guess that works,
but responder could fear opener signed off lacking a diamond control
with the 5 level unsafe, but 3 controls opposite a 2C bid the 5 level is
usually safe]?

Of course my auction would probably go 1S-3S; 4S-p. Considering I don't
think opener has a 2C bid, I don't think it is too much of a stretch to
say opener overbid. :)

Travis

[kingfish]

On Feb 1, 7:56 pm, "m...@netzero.net" <m...@netzero.net> wrote:
> Matchpoints, favorable vulnerability
>
> I dealt, holding: AKQ94, AQJ87, Q, K9
> Partner held: J652, K9, 943, JT53
>
> Our bidding (no interference):
> 2C - 2D (waiting, we give suit positives only with a good suit)
> 2S - 3S
> 4NT - 5D (0 or 3 keycards)
> 5S (end)
>
> This went down one (Club ruff)
>
> I expected more from the raise to 3S. Partner had the alternatives,
> it seemed to me, of a jump raise to 4S (good trump, little else)
> and a double negative of 3C, then Spade raise.
>
> Partner insisted that a double negative 3C suggests a misfit, and
> that a jump to 4S is the double negative with Spade support.
> He further suggested that I should have bid 4H over his 3S.
> This would have denied a minor suit Ace, and he could have signed
> off at 4S. Of course, I still would have been expecting a better hand!
>
> Obviously, we haven't discussed these auctions before tonight.
>
> What do you think? What structure (not too complex, please) works
> best? What would you expect a sound partner to play, without
> discussion?

***
It is tempting to get on my favorite soapbox to discuss the evils of
the "Waiting 2D" response. The base problem starts with 2D not being
a simple Negative, leaving the potential for misunderstanding or lack
of clairity. Personally, i would respond 2D, then follow with 4S to
show that I have a little something and spade support. 3S would be
you basic zero hand with support. But I play 2C as a game force, so
the question is only what game, or what slam.

Sandy Barnes
***

[kingfish]

On Feb 2, 2:19 pm, Travis Crump <pretz...@techhouse.org> wrote:
> Nick France wrote:
> > On Feb 2, 3:22 am, "Kieran Dyke" <tig...@idx.com.au> wrote:
> >> <m...@netzero.net> wrote in message
>
> >>news:1170388606.462648.120870@v45g2000cwv.googlegr oups.com...
>
> >>> Matchpoints, favorable vulnerability
> >>> I dealt, holding: AKQ94, AQJ87, Q, K9
> >>> Partner held: J652, K9, 943, JT53
> >>> Our bidding (no interference):
> >>> 2C - 2D (waiting, we give suit positives only with a good suit)
> >>> 2S - 3S
> >>> 4NT - 5D (0 or 3 keycards)
> >>> 5S (end)
> >>> This went down one (Club ruff)
> >>> I expected more from the raise to 3S. Partner had the alternatives,
> >>> it seemed to me, of a jump raise to 4S (good trump, little else)
> >>> and a double negative of 3C, then Spade raise.
> >>> Partner insisted that a double negative 3C suggests a misfit, and
> >>> that a jump to 4S is the double negative with Spade support.
> >>> He further suggested that I should have bid 4H over his 3S.
> >>> This would have denied a minor suit Ace, and he could have signed
> >>> off at 4S. Of course, I still would have been expecting a better hand!
> >>> Obviously, we haven't discussed these auctions before tonight.
> >>> What do you think? What structure (not too complex, please) works
> >>> best? What would you expect a sound partner to play, without
> >>> discussion?
> >> Well, now you're reaping what you've sown with your foolish responding
> >> arrangements. (It costs little and has huge benefits to make 2D a real
> >> negative, and switch the positives around - maybe 2NT=spades, 2S=general
> >> positive with no good suit.) 4S on the second round should be a specific
> >> hand - four trumps, no first or second round control. A "waiting" 3NT bid
> >> over 3S would catch a 4H cue and now you know of two missing aces, or if you
> >> only cue 1sts as opener, a 4H cue will reveal two missing bullets to
> >> responder.
>
> >> Tiggrr- Hide quoted text -
>
> > I really don't see where the 2D waiting bid had anything to do with
> > the disaster. The opener overbid his strong hand and would have the
> > same disaster with a double negative as he would have bid 4NT over
> > partner's raise just as he did in the example.
>
> > Nick France
>
> I think the problem is that 2D waiting means that 2C-2D; 2S-3S now has a
> range of 4-10+. Does a cue bid by opener ask partner to cooperate with
> a 4 count, or is it just in case responder has a 10 count? If opener
> cue bids 4C and his partner cues 4H is opener really going to give
> up[responder is then supposed to bid 5C with the AC, I guess that works,
> but responder could fear opener signed off lacking a diamond control
> with the 5 level unsafe, but 3 controls opposite a 2C bid the 5 level is
> usually safe]?
>
> Of course my auction would probably go 1S-3S; 4S-p. Considering I don't
> think opener has a 2C bid, I don't think it is too much of a stretch to
> say opener overbid. :)
>
> Travis- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

***
I agree that this hand is not a true 2C opening, but if you do not
play an Acol 2 Bid opening, you must either overbid slightly with 2C
or underbid greatly with 1S. I would not complain about either
choice, I would rather complain about not having a 2S bid to open this
hand with.

Sandy Barnes
***

[raija d]

<mauer@netzero.net> wrote in message
news:1170388606.462648.120870@v45g2000cwv.googlegr oups.com...
> Matchpoints, favorable vulnerability
>
> I dealt, holding: AKQ94, AQJ87, Q, K9
> Partner held: J652, K9, 943, JT53
>
> Our bidding (no interference):
> 2C - 2D (waiting, we give suit positives only with a good suit)
> 2S - 3S
> 4NT - 5D (0 or 3 keycards)
> 5S (end)
>
> This went down one (Club ruff)
>
> I expected more from the raise to 3S. Partner had the alternatives,
> it seemed to me, of a jump raise to 4S (good trump, little else)
> and a double negative of 3C, then Spade raise.

Raise to 4S shows nothing (or next to nothing) such as xxx-xxxx-xx-xxxx or a
little better Jxxx-xx-xxx-Jxxx and definitely denies a side King or Ace.
The 3S was absolutely correct IMO.


>
> Partner insisted that a double negative 3C suggests a misfit, and
> that a jump to 4S is the double negative with Spade support.

Correct.


> He further suggested that I should have bid 4H over his 3S.
> This would have denied a minor suit Ace, and he could have signed
> off at 4S. Of course, I still would have been expecting a better hand!

Correct. But I don't know why you would expect a better hand, partner has a
side king and 4-card support. With anything better than that he will show
it after opener bids 4H.


>
> Obviously, we haven't discussed these auctions before tonight.
>
> What do you think? What structure (not too complex, please) works
> best? What would you expect a sound partner to play, without
> discussion?

Without discussion (other than 2D waiting and cheapest minor second neg) I
expect them to bid this hand as your partner suggests. 2D=waiting; 3C =
second negative and no spade support; raise to 3S = spade support and denies
bust; 4S = bust or close to bust with spade support.

It is possible to include in the 3C second neg the bust hands with spade
support; in which case 4S is a hand with 4-card support but denies outside
controls and denies bust.

As opener, I would bid 4H over 3S. That highlights the minor suit aces
missing. RKC was not wise IMO.