Divorcing magic items from gold

[Anonymous]

Okay, I'm slowly starting to get convinced that a game with few magic
items isn't such a good idea.

So what about a game where magic items weren't tied to gold pieces?

What this is supposed to achieve:

1) The potential for poor (but personally powerful) PCs. Ever heard a
story about the knight errant who had to chop wood with his sword to
earn a meal and a roof for the night?

2) Give PCs more options for their wealth when they do have it. The
options are there in the standard game, of course, but if you spend more
than a negligible amount of your wealth on ale and whores, or starting a
business, or something like that, you're going to lag behind in
adventuring power. And in D&D adventuring power trumps even ale and
whores.

Possible ways to achieve thi:

1) Allow paying for item creation with XP only. I've looked at both no
gold, double XP (so 80 XP/1,000 gp of item value) and standard XP + gold
converted to XP (so 140 XP/1,000 gp) as immediately obvious formulas,
but I'm not sure they really work well. At lower levels, items become
terribly cheap to produce, while at higher levels, they become rather
expensive.

2) Make the materials used in construction unavailable (or only rarely
or partially available) for mere money. Instead, you could acquire the
materials by adventuring: instead of getting 3,000 gp after killing the
red dragon, you get the dragon's heart... which you could use to bring
your +1 sword to +1 flaming, incidentally making it worth exactly 3,000
gp for the purposes of item creation. The main drawback is that this is
inviting people to become a mobile butchery/curio shop, trying to save
every piece of every exotic monster, material, plant or place they come
across.

3) For a Dying Earth style setting, have the source of magic item
components be other magic items. No-one is sure how the ancients treated
the electrum used in shocking swords, but if you manage to find a
shocking spear somewhere, or even a wand of lightning bolt, there are
wizards who can scavenge the electrum and make your sword for you.

4) More?

Comments, suggestions, experiences...?


--
Jasin Zujovic

[Anonymous]

Jasin Zujovic wrote:
Okay, I'm slowly starting to get convinced that a game with few magic
items isn't such a good idea.

So what about a game where magic items weren't tied to gold pieces?

What this is supposed to achieve:

1) The potential for poor (but personally powerful) PCs. Ever heard a
story about the knight errant who had to chop wood with his sword to
earn a meal and a roof for the night?

2) Give PCs more options for their wealth when they do have it. The
options are there in the standard game, of course, but if you spend more
than a negligible amount of your wealth on ale and whores, or starting a
business, or something like that, you're going to lag behind in
adventuring power. And in D&D adventuring power trumps even ale and
whores.

Possible ways to achieve thi:

1) Allow paying for item creation with XP only. I've looked at both no
gold, double XP (so 80 XP/1,000 gp of item value) and standard XP + gold
converted to XP (so 140 XP/1,000 gp) as immediately obvious formulas,
but I'm not sure they really work well. At lower levels, items become
terribly cheap to produce, while at higher levels, they become rather
expensive.

2) Make the materials used in construction unavailable (or only rarely
or partially available) for mere money. Instead, you could acquire the
materials by adventuring: instead of getting 3,000 gp after killing the
red dragon, you get the dragon's heart... which you could use to bring
your +1 sword to +1 flaming, incidentally making it worth exactly 3,000
gp for the purposes of item creation. The main drawback is that this is
inviting people to become a mobile butchery/curio shop, trying to save
every piece of every exotic monster, material, plant or place they come
across.

3) For a Dying Earth style setting, have the source of magic item
components be other magic items. No-one is sure how the ancients treated
the electrum used in shocking swords, but if you manage to find a
shocking spear somewhere, or even a wand of lightning bolt, there are
wizards who can scavenge the electrum and make your sword for you.

4) More?

Comments, suggestions, experiences...?


How about hard-to-sell magic items, an adventure in itself so to speak.

-Dragonkat- Insanity is relative

[Anonymous]

Jasin Zujovic wrote:
Okay, I'm slowly starting to get convinced that a game with few magic
items isn't such a good idea.

So what about a game where magic items weren't tied to gold pieces?

What this is supposed to achieve:

1) The potential for poor (but personally powerful) PCs. Ever heard a
story about the knight errant who had to chop wood with his sword to
earn a meal and a roof for the night?

2) Give PCs more options for their wealth when they do have it. The
options are there in the standard game, of course, but if you spend more
than a negligible amount of your wealth on ale and whores, or starting a
business, or something like that, you're going to lag behind in
adventuring power. And in D&D adventuring power trumps even ale and
whores.

Possible ways to achieve thi:

1) Allow paying for item creation with XP only. I've looked at both no
gold, double XP (so 80 XP/1,000 gp of item value) and standard XP + gold
converted to XP (so 140 XP/1,000 gp) as immediately obvious formulas,
but I'm not sure they really work well. At lower levels, items become
terribly cheap to produce, while at higher levels, they become rather
expensive.

2) Make the materials used in construction unavailable (or only rarely
or partially available) for mere money. Instead, you could acquire the
materials by adventuring: instead of getting 3,000 gp after killing the
red dragon, you get the dragon's heart... which you could use to bring
your +1 sword to +1 flaming, incidentally making it worth exactly 3,000
gp for the purposes of item creation. The main drawback is that this is
inviting people to become a mobile butchery/curio shop, trying to save
every piece of every exotic monster, material, plant or place they come
across.

3) For a Dying Earth style setting, have the source of magic item
components be other magic items. No-one is sure how the ancients treated
the electrum used in shocking swords, but if you manage to find a
shocking spear somewhere, or even a wand of lightning bolt, there are
wizards who can scavenge the electrum and make your sword for you.

4) More?


5) Also for a Dying Earth-type setting. The art of creating most magic
items beyond wands, scrolls, and staves has been lost. At the
beginning of play, have each player provide you a list of three to five
items they would like to eventually own, and WHY. Explain that they
may not get these exact items, but you will work to keep with the
spirit of their requests. You now know what the players want, but can
tailor their magic to your needs and insert interesting plot hooks and
descriptions for every single item--rather than "hmm...another +1 keen
sword. ANyone want it? No? We'll trade it in for something else."
And have that trade in-be equally flavorless. Every treasure will be
gratefully received.

6) Dying earth again. Not sure how this would work out, but seems kind
of fun: Remove the identify spell (and analyze dweomer, etc.). A high
spellcraft roll will determine the general nature of an item, nothing
else. All items have some degree of sentience, and will reveal their
nature when and where they choose. Thus players can walk around
literally covered in magic items, and have no idea what each does.

[Anonymous]

Jasin Zujovic wrote:

4) More?

How about some form of item scaling? I think Weapons of Legacy uses such a
system. Alternatively:

Introduce something like a magical crystal, available at a steepish price
(250-1000 gp depending upon size and quality) but only quite scarce in
quantity. Attaching a crystal to a masterwork item allows a part of the
wielder's essence to be channeled into it.

Then give each character the equivalent of an Artificer's Craft Reserve at
each level, which can be invested into these crystals in order to give the
items magical properties. The character pays the XP cost of adding a power
or enhancement out of his craft reserve, and then the power manifests in the
item after a night's rest. Items keep their power for an hour after being
parted from their owner, after which their crafting XP reverts to the
wielder, and they must be re-invested.

Larger crystals allow higher-level powers, and the smallest, cheapest
crystals can only be invested with expendable powers, equivalent to scrolls,
potions or wands. When the power is expended from such items, the crystal is
consumed, and the craft reserve does not return to the wielder - he must
wait until it is refreshed at level-up.

By limiting players to only using the craft reserve, rather than real XP, to
invest their items, their powers are kept in line with the characters'
levels. You could, perhaps, introduce feats to allow for temporary sharing
of craft reserve, and give spellcasters larger reserves. This would
compensate for the lack of item creation feats.

Another option is to shift magic item creation from arcane casters purely to
divine casters, and take a leaf out of the Eberron campaign setting by
having priests be disinterested in selling their wares. Then make the
party's chief sponsor a member of one such faith, who will reward the party
for each successful quest with free upgrades to their items. That could get
very railroady, though - the party essentially have to be working for one or
another church in order to get their items.

Comments, suggestions, experiences...?

Your first idea, that of using XP only for item creation, runs into trouble
if using the 3.5e experience system. A character who invests a large amount
of XP in item creation may lag behind the party in level, but his superior
items will make him a match for them, and meanwhile he'll be earning higher
XP for each encounter until he levels up. He could end up significantly
better off in equipment whilst still having close to the same XP total as
everyone else.

--
Mark.

[Anonymous]

In article <1145906558>,
quuxa23@yahoo.com says...

6) Dying earth again. Not sure how this would work out, but seems kind
of fun: Remove the identify spell (and analyze dweomer, etc.). A high
spellcraft roll will determine the general nature of an item, nothing
else. All items have some degree of sentience, and will reveal their
nature when and where they choose. Thus players can walk around
literally covered in magic items, and have no idea what each does.

Since I've also been reading about Rokugan lately, this actually sounds
quite like Rokugan.

Well, perhaps not "covered in", but since items in Rokugan can
spontaneously get awakened as the owner's belief draws kami to the item
(if I understood correctly), it is possible to carry around a cloak of
displacement and never know it until someone attacks you and your form
blurs as the kami moves to protect you, and he misses. (Again, perhaps a
cloak of displacement is a bit too powerful an effect for Rokugan, but
the general principle holds.)

The items also seem to be mostly keyed to the owner: killing someone for
his +3 flaming spear of fireballs will get you a masterwork spear.

One could also mix and match, and have characters with a couple of minor
"lucky charms" that provide minor effects like +1 resistance or +1
protection, which are easy to make, or are created spontaneously and
work only for the owner, and one or two powerful items which are ancient
artifacts, or reworkings of ancient artifacts, and which are lasting.

So when you kill the blackguard, you get his Unholy Blade of Disaster
and can use it, or break it up to make other powerful items, or do what
you want with it, but his cloak of resistance and amulets of natural
armour and such expire with him. So there's still some fun to be gotten
from looting, as you can get people's signature items when you kill 'em,
but you don't bother with the stuff that just serves to bring them to
the required levels of AC and saves, and which would just be sold so you
can bring yourself to the required level.


--
Jasin Zujovic

[Anonymous]

In article <4b4ocvFvut2oU1>,
markATmarkdb.plus..com@address.invalid says...

4) More?

How about some form of item scaling? I think Weapons of Legacy uses such a
system.

Weapons of Legacy seemed to have a good premise, but really really lousy
execution, from what I've heard on the Net, at least in the context of a
standard game.

The penalties to hp and saves and such were simply to high a price for
items that didn't do much more than you could achieve with Craft Magic
Arms & Armour and a pile o' money.

It seemed as if they were balancing the weapons with the assumption that
the party shares wealth evenly, so the guy with the weapon of legacy
gets his share to spend on items in addition to having a weapon of
legacy which auto-powers-up... which means that the weapon of legacy has
to be worth roughly zero to maintain balacne. From the previews, it
seems they succeeded. :p

However, the basic premise of self-improving weapon, especially one with
a history, is sound, yes...

Alternatively:

Introduce something like a magical crystal, available at a steepish price
(250-1000 gp depending upon size and quality) but only quite scarce in
quantity. Attaching a crystal to a masterwork item allows a part of the
wielder's essence to be channeled into it.

Eh. I don't really like the whole socketed crystal visual.

But your idea could work almost the same without a focus: just channel
your mojo into any item you want (or possibly any masterwork, depending
on whether you like the idea of crap-by-mundane-standards but magical
items).

Then give each character the equivalent of an Artificer's Craft Reserve at
each level, which can be invested into these crystals in order to give the
items magical properties. The character pays the XP cost of adding a power
or enhancement out of his craft reserve, and then the power manifests in the
item after a night's rest. Items keep their power for an hour after being
parted from their owner, after which their crafting XP reverts to the
wielder, and they must be re-invested.

And the amount of XP per level can neatly be calculated from the wealth
guidelines, making each character adhere to the guidelines almost
perfectly.

By limiting players to only using the craft reserve, rather than real XP, to
invest their items, their powers are kept in line with the characters'
levels.

That's a good idea, and stops the crafter from making himself a boatload
of items and then counting on the XP system to bring him up to speed
with the others...

You could, perhaps, introduce feats to allow for temporary sharing
of craft reserve,

I'm not sure what you mean here. Making an item cooperatively that
requires a larger craft reserve than either of the crafters have?

and give spellcasters larger reserves. This would
compensate for the lack of item creation feats.


--
Jasin Zujovic

[Anonymous]

Jasin Zujovic wrote:

You could, perhaps, introduce feats to allow for temporary sharing
of craft reserve,

I'm not sure what you mean here. Making an item cooperatively that
requires a larger craft reserve than either of the crafters have?

I was thinking of something like a fast, temporary 'powering up' of an item
through use of unexpended Craft Reserve, something like an artificer's
weapon/armour augmentation infusions. You could even base the feats on those
infusions - then allow them to be taken as bonus wizard feats. That would
allow a degree of flexibility, by letting parties perform minor
customisations of their equipment at a few minutes' notice.

It's not something essential, it just seemed like a logical extension of the
system, and it would be useful to have something to put in place of item
creation feats.

It occurs to me that the system I'm suggesting may have a lot more in common
with the Incarnum system recently introduced in Magic of Incarnum than with
Weapons of Legacy, but I don't own either book, so I can't say for sure. It
might be a good place to look for inspiration, though.

--
Mark.

[Anonymous]

On 24 Apr 2006 12:22:38 -0700, "quuxa23@yahoo.com" <quuxa23>
wrote:

6) Dying earth again. Not sure how this would work out, but seems kind
of fun: Remove the identify spell (and analyze dweomer, etc.). A high
spellcraft roll will determine the general nature of an item, nothing
else. All items have some degree of sentience, and will reveal their
nature when and where they choose. Thus players can walk around
literally covered in magic items, and have no idea what each does.

I've run games like that, and after a while it gets to be a royal pain
for the GM. The GM has to remember to apply all the effects of the
item, each time it's used, and that's on top of everything else. It's
easy to lose track, and hearing players constantly asking "did you
include my magic sward of god-knows-what?" gets tedious as well.
--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn>

[Anonymous]

Jasin Zujovic wrote:
Okay, I'm slowly starting to get convinced that a game with few magic
items isn't such a good idea.

So what about a game where magic items weren't tied to gold pieces?

What this is supposed to achieve:

1) The potential for poor (but personally powerful) PCs. Ever heard a
story about the knight errant who had to chop wood with his sword to
earn a meal and a roof for the night?

He can still sell one of his magic items.

In fact, in fantasy literature (a different genre from D&D literature)
it is extremely uncommon for a character to own more than one magic item.

2) Give PCs more options for their wealth when they do have it. The
options are there in the standard game, of course, but if you spend more
than a negligible amount of your wealth on ale and whores, or starting a
business, or something like that, you're going to lag behind in
adventuring power. And in D&D adventuring power trumps even ale and
whores.

You could make rules for mundane equipment of higher quality. Currently
there are only normal swords and masterwork swords. You could expand
that range so that there are is one step *below* normal, shoddy, then
there is normal, and then there is three or even four steps *above* normal.

The problem is that if quality bonuses are cumulative with magic
bonuses, then characters (all characters, not just player characters)
will obsess about acquiring the highest quality equipment to put magic
into, because it is inefficient to put magic into normal quality equipment.

On the other hand, if you do not make quality and magic bonuses
cumulative, you run into a suspension of disbelief problem.

Possible ways to achieve thi:

1) Allow paying for item creation with XP only. I've looked at both no
gold, double XP (so 80 XP/1,000 gp of item value) and standard XP + gold
converted to XP (so 140 XP/1,000 gp) as immediately obvious formulas,
but I'm not sure they really work well. At lower levels, items become
terribly cheap to produce, while at higher levels, they become rather
expensive.

I'm not sure what you mean here.

But you could dump XPs, and give each character an inborn "permanent
magic allowance" instead. It'll be somewhat similar to the concept of
Essence in Sagatafl, except that the allowance would probably have to be
proportional with character level.

2) Make the materials used in construction unavailable (or only rarely
or partially available) for mere money. Instead, you could acquire the
materials by adventuring: instead of getting 3,000 gp after killing the
red dragon, you get the dragon's heart... which you could use to bring
your +1 sword to +1 flaming, incidentally making it worth exactly 3,000
gp for the purposes of item creation. The main drawback is that this is
inviting people to become a mobile butchery/curio shop, trying to save
every piece of every exotic monster, material, plant or place they come
across.

It also massively shifts control towards the GM. The reason for having
magic item creation rules in the rules book, and for not having any
particularly strict requirements (exotic ingredients) is that it
empowers the players, by letting them chose what items their characters
shall have, rather than letting it be up to the GM.

Of course, D&D3 does not take this principle all the way to its
conclusion. The time requirements for enchantment mean that in many
campaigns, PCs do not make their own magic items. But the principle is
there, and it is a sound one.

3) For a Dying Earth style setting, have the source of magic item
components be other magic items. No-one is sure how the ancients treated
the electrum used in shocking swords, but if you manage to find a
shocking spear somewhere, or even a wand of lightning bolt, there are
wizards who can scavenge the electrum and make your sword for you.

4) More?

Comments, suggestions, experiences...?

Make sure it keeps being about playing the game, rather than playing the
GM. There are things I don't like about D&D3, but unlike the vast
majority of other systems in existence, it was designed for the players
rather than for the GMs. Be careful not to lose that.

--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org

[Anonymous]

Rupert Boleyn wrote:
On 24 Apr 2006 12:22:38 -0700, "quuxa23@yahoo.com" <quuxa23@yahoo.com
wrote:
6) Dying earth again. Not sure how this would work out, but seems kind
of fun: Remove the identify spell (and analyze dweomer, etc.). A high
spellcraft roll will determine the general nature of an item, nothing
else. All items have some degree of sentience, and will reveal their
nature when and where they choose. Thus players can walk around
literally covered in magic items, and have no idea what each does.

I've run games like that, and after a while it gets to be a royal pain
for the GM. The GM has to remember to apply all the effects of the
item, each time it's used, and that's on top of everything else. It's
easy to lose track, and hearing players constantly asking "did you
include my magic sward of god-knows-what?" gets tedious as well.

Could it be because your players don't trust you to be diligent in
*always* including *all* applicable modifiers?

Some GMs are extremely lax in this regard and absolutely unrepentant
about it.

It is very possible that your players have massive previous experience
playing with such a GM. Or that they for some reason assume that you
belong to that breed.

--
Peter Knutsen
sagatafl.org

[Anonymous]

On Tue, 25 Apr 2006 08:11:41 +0200, "Peter Knutsen (usenet)"
<peter> wrote:

Could it be because your players don't trust you to be diligent in
*always* including *all* applicable modifiers?

Some GMs are extremely lax in this regard and absolutely unrepentant
about it.

It is very possible that your players have massive previous experience
playing with such a GM. Or that they for some reason assume that you
belong to that breed.

It could be, but it's also likely that at least some of them were just
trying to squeeze every last possible bonus out of the GM. Things
like:
"did you add the sword's bonus in?"
"Yes"
"Are you sure?"
lead me to suspect this. Either way, it's a pain for the GM to track
secret bonuses on top of everything else.
--
Rupert Boleyn <rboleyn>

[Anonymous]

Peter Knutsen (usenet) wrote:
Jasin Zujovic wrote:

But you could dump XPs, and give each character an inborn "permanent
magic allowance" instead. It'll be somewhat similar to the concept of
Essence in Sagatafl, except that the allowance would probably have to be
proportional with character level.


This sounds like it has potential. You could easily just say, use the
weath guidelines for PCs, say they get to incorporate magic items into
thier character. Basically the fighter would have his sword become +1
keen, etc just from being his for some time. You might limit it to non
consumable/charged items, and just let them choose what they want out
of the DMG. Basically 'free' instantaneous magic item creation. They
only function in the hands of the owner, as it isn't really the item
that's magical, it's the soul, ancestors, or whatever powering the
items. Put some limits on it, like it's not instantaneously
transferable, so you don't have the fighter picking up a broken chair
leg and having it become a +1 flaming chair leg. Make it at level up
only, with items they currently possess.

- Justisaur

[Anonymous]

Jasin Zujovic wrote:
So what about a game where magic items weren't tied to gold pieces?

Make magic items more specific.
Get rid of the numerical enhancements and turn them into levels of
quality.
Real Magic (capital "M") would not have a value because it would be
either almost worthless to the everyday customer ("Why the hell would I
need an ugly Cloak of Shadow Resistance? Give me a warm woolen one!
Blue!") or enormously useful for the right buyer ("I am about to rescue
the love of my life from the Shadowmonster! I will give you twelve
camels laden with gold for it!")

However, this would require a change in campaign design (you saw this
coming, right?) in order to reduce the demand for Cloaks of Shadow
Resistance. Everything but the main quest (the Shadowmonster) would
have to be set up so that every peasant and his granny does NOT need a
Cloak of Protection to fight weird magical monsters in their very back
yard. Hungry wolves, brigands, and enemy soldiers can be fought with
sharp swords and swift arrows.

Unfortunately, D&D kinda encourages the use of the whole Monster
Manual, with magical, flame-and-shadow using and resisting monsters at
every step, thus creating a demand and therefore a market for
protections and means of attack using all kinds of magic.

Silveraxe.

[Anonymous]

How aboput reworking some spells, feats, etc. to let higher level characters
get some of the benefits the game now assumes you use magic items for? For
instance, let Mage Armor give an AC bonus of 1 per level, maxing out at a
high enough point that high level mages don't need bracers/cloaks. Then
dump the bracers and cloaks from the campaign.
--
Ken Arromdee / arromdee_AT_rahul.net / http://www.rahul.net/arromdee

"You know, you blow up one sun and suddenly everyone expects you to walk
on water." --Samantha Carter, Stargate SG-1

[Anonymous]

Jasin Zujovic wrote:
Okay, I'm slowly starting to get convinced that a game with few magic
items isn't such a good idea.

So what about a game where magic items weren't tied to gold pieces?

I've never had them "tied" to GP. You can BUY them, under the
right circumstances, and if you're making them they'll take some
number of resources -- which, in a game where people want shorthand,
will translate to GP, just as "hours of work" translates in this world
to "Dollars". Arrange the creation and/or availability of magic items
based on whatever seems sensible for the world.




--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Live Journal: http://www.livejournal.com/users/seawasp/

[Anonymous]

Silveraxe wrote:
Jasin Zujovic wrote:
So what about a game where magic items weren't tied to gold pieces?

Make magic items more specific.
Get rid of the numerical enhancements and turn them into levels of
quality.
Real Magic (capital "M") would not have a value because it would be
either almost worthless to the everyday customer ("Why the hell would I
need an ugly Cloak of Shadow Resistance? Give me a warm woolen one!
Blue!") or enormously useful for the right buyer ("I am about to rescue
the love of my life from the Shadowmonster! I will give you twelve
camels laden with gold for it!")

However, this would require a change in campaign design (you saw this
coming, right?) in order to reduce the demand for Cloaks of Shadow
Resistance.

Yep. 3e assumes a "computer game" style of magic item economics, where
you can theoretically duck into the nearest storefront and choose from
a list.

Everybody can use potions of healing, so those could be sold out of
vending constructs. However, why a spellcaster would go about making
Cloaks of Shadow Resistence without some kind of impetus is beyond me,
so I would assume that particular item to be somewhat rare unless
you're hanging out in a region with some history of dealing with
shadowish things; same reason that it's damned hard to buy ski
equipment and snow chains here in South Texas. Location, location,
location...etc. That's where the money/magic concept kinda breaks down
for me.

Everything but the main quest (the Shadowmonster) would
have to be set up so that every peasant and his granny does NOT need a
Cloak of Protection to fight weird magical monsters in their very back
yard. Hungry wolves, brigands, and enemy soldiers can be fought with
sharp swords and swift arrows.

And this is another thing. The ready availability of magic items seems
to assume that lots of people need them all the time, so magic has the
same level of mystique in the game as cell phones and Swiffer DustJets.
Useful things, but hardly items of wonder. Now, the legendary PS3 on
the other hand...


Unfortunately, D&D kinda encourages the use of the whole Monster
Manual, with magical, flame-and-shadow using and resisting monsters at
every step, thus creating a demand and therefore a market for
protections and means of attack using all kinds of magic.

Well, the monsters are there, of course, but the DM doesn't have to
make every caravan of wool traders fight off gaggles of harpies en
route to the bazaar if he doesn't want to (IMC, harpies have a
preference for synthetic fabrics). IMO, the game is set up in buffet
style, everything you could possibly want or not want is laid out in
front of you, and you can put as much or as little on your plate as you
like. What a DM "should" be doing is picking and choosing things in
proper proportions that won't give him heartburn later on.

So, if a DM doesn't want to do the whole magical Wal-Mart deal, he
needs to tone down the variety and nature of his encounters to suit the
lower-magic feel, or alter the critters to follow suit.

Usually what I'll do is provide PCs with opportunities to buy magic
items in apparently random, haphazard ways...a mumbling scavanger with
a few Special Things tucked away in the bottom of the cart, etc.
Rarely will I do permanent magic shops in anything but a large city,
although PCs can always seek out spellcasters or temples if they want
something specific.

So, I design the campaigns with that in mind. I try and avoid using
monsters that "require" magic items to handle, unless the PCs have had
ample opportunity to pick up appropriate goodies, or unless they can
handle it some other way, or unless they made a dumb choice that
resulted in such an encounter.


--
Jay Knioum
The Mad Afro

[Anonymous]

The Mad Afro wrote:
Yep. 3e assumes a "computer game" style of magic item economics, where
you can theoretically duck into the nearest storefront and choose from
a list.
[...]
Rarely will I do permanent magic shops in anything but a large city,
although PCs can always seek out spellcasters or temples if they want
something specific.

Not to mention that if a "magical Wal-Mart" existed, it'd need an
incredible security system.

Let's do some math...

1 silver piece is supposed to be subsistence wages for a day. If we
equate that to minimum wage in the modern world, that means 1 sp is
roughly equivalent to $50. 1 gold is therefore $500. And a single +1
Ring of Protection is $1,000,000!

Every rogue with a few levels under his belt will be chomping at the bit
to get into that shop. As long as he doesn't go adventuring, he could
live off that kind of money for *years*...

One simple solution is to make magic items much cheaper, but make money
equally less common. If you could buy a Cure Light Wounds potion for
5gp, instead of 50, then even normal people might be able to afford to
have one around - just in case. (Which makes the magical shop a little
more realistic).

Has anyone considered dividing all treasure/magic item monies by ten or
more? What kind of issues did this raise?

--
Jim Seymour

[Anonymous]

Jim Seymour wrote:
The Mad Afro wrote:

Yep. 3e assumes a "computer game" style of magic item economics, where
you can theoretically duck into the nearest storefront and choose from
a list.
[...]
Rarely will I do permanent magic shops in anything but a large city,
although PCs can always seek out spellcasters or temples if they want
something specific.


Not to mention that if a "magical Wal-Mart" existed, it'd need an
incredible security system.

Let's do some math...

1 silver piece is supposed to be subsistence wages for a day. If we
equate that to minimum wage in the modern world, that means 1 sp is
roughly equivalent to $50. 1 gold is therefore $500. And a single +1
Ring of Protection is $1,000,000!

Every rogue with a few levels under his belt will be chomping at the bit
to get into that shop. As long as he doesn't go adventuring, he could
like off that kind of money for *years*...

One simple solution is to make magic items much cheaper, but make money
equally less common. If you could buy a Cure Light Wounds potion for
5gp, instead of 50, then even normal people might be able to afford to
have one around - just in case. (Which makes the magical shop a little
more realistic).

Has anyone considered dividing all treasure/magic item monies by ten or
more? What kind of issues did this raise?


Theres all kinds of spells that could be used to protect such a shop,
and with the value contained I think that any owner would have nearly
every spell that would help in place...

Anti-magic fields, etc, etc, etc...

[Anonymous]

Jim Seymour wrote:
The Mad Afro wrote:
Yep. 3e assumes a "computer game" style of magic item economics, where
you can theoretically duck into the nearest storefront and choose from
a list.
[...]
Rarely will I do permanent magic shops in anything but a large city,
although PCs can always seek out spellcasters or temples if they want
something specific.

Not to mention that if a "magical Wal-Mart" existed, it'd need an
incredible security system.

Let's do some math...

Oooh, math. 8]

1 silver piece is supposed to be subsistence wages for a day.

Where subsistance was living in the equivilent of a self-made wood
pup-tent with ones family and surviving on bread and beer; cheap-ass
home brew beer at that (being the cheapest way to clean the water, and a
good source of vitamins too).
NB: wages 1sp/day, poor meals 1sp/day. Everything else is DIY.

If we equate that to minimum wage in the modern world, that means 1 sp
is roughly equivalent to $50.

From what I've looked at, in terms of an approximate price index
from C14, 1 DnD sp would be worth about a silver penny (DnD precious
metal values are out by around 10-20 times, but the rest match OK at that).
1p medieval ~= €2.50, so 1gp = €25.

DnD's unskilled labourers are earning a couple bucks a day, much
like our own modern slave labour forces in the third world.

1 gold is therefore $500. And a single +1 Ring of Protection is

... about 50 grand, a luxury car sort of item in the modern world.
That CLW potion is €625, while a sword is €375 (or a top quality one for
20 times that).

Every rogue with a few levels under his belt will be chomping at the bit
to get into that shop. As long as he doesn't go adventuring, he could
like off that kind of money for *years*...

Everyone with a "few levels" under their belt has the equivilent of
€100,000 or more in personal wealth, they can already "retire".
They /could/ instead get on the bad side of the magic trade guild
(if anything's going to be a cartel, that is), but it's probably not the
best of ideas. It's not like it's hard for a Cleric or Wizard to solve
simple crimes in DnDland if 'e puts h' mind to it.

And yes, theives probably do steal magic items in DnD land, just
like theives here steal luxury cars or loot trust funds. Fencing them
would be tricky with the cartel in place though.

One simple solution is to make magic items much cheaper, but make money
equally less common. If you could buy a Cure Light Wounds potion for
5gp, instead of 50, then even normal people might be able to afford to
have one around - just in case.

Commoners call on the local Adept when they're injured (they're
rarely more than a few hundred feet from the villiage centre), just as
modern folk call on the local doctor rather then spend thousands of
dollars to reconstruct a fully stocked clinic in their basement.

(Which makes the magical shop a little more realistic).

No it doesn't, it makes common labourers as wealthy as the elite of
society, which is quite an anachronism in a psuedo-medieval setting.
They didn't have or need a car or a house in the 'burbs, and their kids
didn't have the simplest toys let alone cell-phones and computers.

--
tussock

Aspie at work, sorry in advance.